I got mine yesterday and have taken a skim through most of it. Apart from the fact that I'm playing a recently-ascended Malleus Inquisitor, it has both: info on the structure, history, people and function of the Calixis Malleus (something which I think is invaluable for any Malleus campaign or campaign incorporating Malleus elements); shiny new toys, without having too many. Oh and rules for Grey Knights, which is pretty badass.Personally I'm going to get a lot of use out of the whole book. That's just my opinion so far though, I'd love to hear what others think. Was there anything specific you wanted to know?
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I'm curious to see how they handled the Grey Knights. I can't imagine fitting a SM into the DH rules is a simple thing. Regardless, I'm going to buy the thing so at this point I'm just looking for reactions to the book.
As presented, Grey Knights are intended for use either in an all-Grey Knight campaign (with full support for using them with Deathwatch rules rather than Dark Heresy, if you have Deathwatch available and prefer to do so) or as secondary characters used in higher-power interludes during your Dark Heresy campaign. The latter being of a format where your acolytes to the investigatory work, then when the time comes for killing things they can't handle, you bust out your Grey Knights kill-team that the acolytes' Inquisitor has killed in based off their legwork and play through that. As presented, Grey Knights are intended for use either in an all-Grey Knight campaign (with full support for using them with Deathwatch rules rather than Dark Heresy, if you have Deathwatch available and prefer to do so) or as secondary characters used in higher-power interludes during your Dark Heresy campaign. The latter being of a format where your acolytes to the investigatory work, then when the time comes for killing things they can't handle, you bust out your Grey Knights kill-team that the acolytes' Inquisitor has killed in based off their legwork and play through that.
The quality of integration of the Grey Knights with the Deathwatch rules is of interest to me - can you comment on how well it looks to work? Are the marines pretty comparable?
As for your second point, are you basically saying that you use your DH characters to investigate, find the big-big-big-bad Daemon, then point a squad of Grey Knights at them for epic combat? Try Sansa or Goodreader (not free, sorry). I always wait to buy the Fantasy Flight pdfs until Drivethru updates the issue. Usually takes a few weeks. The problem is formatting/layers, but the folks over there (at DriveThru) are really receptive to emails and have fixed almost every product (Though Deathwatch core still is bad). Generally this is not a real problem for me, since I have standardly use Windows and hate Mac, but I do have an IPad as well (until a Windows product comes out).
I will get this when I have the funds, but would prefer to use it for Deathwatch instead of Dark Heresy. The book says that Ordo Malleus has spent the last 10,000 years purging the Imperium of all knowledge of the Warp and Chaos. (On top of that, they apparently wiped out 90% of all knowledge along the way.) This causes all sorts of issues. If the common man doesn't know what Chaos is, then what was the Horus Heresy? Is it common knowledge that Horus just decided to betray the Emperor for personal power? Or is the Horus Heresy not even known?
What are Chaos Marine legions and Chaos Fleets, then? What is the Emperor's disembodied mind battling against so that he needs a thousand psychics sacrificed to him a day, if not The Ruinous Powers? Or is that not even known? Do Eccleisarchs on the pulpit not denounce the Ruinous Powers, and blame them for misfortune, on a regular basis because talking about them would be a mistake (if they even knew about the subject to start with in order to preach about it)?
It implies that Ordo Malleus rabidly oversees all Chaos-related matters, keeping them to itself; violently, if necessary. I've been reading Eisenhorn, though, and the novel seems to imply that Inquisitors of the various Ordos pursue whatever targets they want or come across, regardless of whether or not the Inquisitor is from Ordo Xenos and the pursuit is against heretics and Chaos Marines.
It says that even inside the Inquisition, the Grey Knights are only a legend. Outside the Inquisition, they're unknown. The Grey Knights themselves are supposed to kill everyone they come across (except, I guess, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors) in order to maintain their secrecy. It's strongly implied that acolytes would be killed except in special circumstances, perhaps a nod to allowing the PCs to live through a run-in.
The Dark Heresy main book makes no mention of anything like this and they're only described as the psychic space marine chapter serving Ordo Malleus. The various passages had made me think the Grey Knights were famous even among the Space Marines as a whole, but no, apparently not. Daemon Hunter appears to rip out several parts of my limited understanding of the WH40K milieu. Daemon Hunter appears to rip out several parts of my limited understanding of the WH40K milieu. 40k continuity is a myth you'd best let go of now.
I -think- the idea is that the average citizen of the Imperium knows of Chaos the same way the average person knows of Evil. It's when people can tell the difference between Nurgle and Slannesh that you have a problem. If they're not Marines they get exterminated ('good work helping us fight back those daemons Guardsmen. Now just stand still.'
), if they are Marines they get mindwiped and retrained (but that's typically ignored in the fluff these days, especially in the Deathwatch RPG). But always take 40k fluff with a grain of salt.
In FFG's defense, they are almost certainly extremely limited as to how much they can clean up the IP they license. And all that stuff that's exploding your head? That's all Games Workshop's baby. A good read on the Grey Knights is the novel by Ben counter the Knights are virtually unknown throughout the Imperium a corrupt Inquisitor even tricks a sororitas unit into fighting them only because Justiciar alaric knows the fidelitas lex do they realize they have been tricked.
And yeah most of the poeple toil live and die without knowing much about the heresy, chaos and the nature of the ruinous powers. Also you have to remember that the dark heresy rule book was written back when making the Grey Knights and Deathwatch was only a half formed idea so it wouldn't really be in the main book there wasn't much on the knights until the new codex came out focusing on them other than the sparse info in the Daemon hunters codex. Daemon Hunter appears to rip out several parts of my limited understanding of the WH40K milieu.
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In fair disclosure I worked on DH but not on the Grey Knights section. 40k canon for a long while was that any encounter with Chaos saw wholesale brainwashing or extermination. Imperial Guard regiments being purged after fighting Daemons etc. The Inquisition certainly conceals as much as they investigate and while some aspects have softened (Guard regiments not being killed just for seeing a Chaos Marine), it's still the case that the average Imperial Citizen knows nothing about the Ruinous Powers. For the Ministorum, preaching the light and truth of the Imperial Creed is the dominant focus of their ministrations. Mutants are known about and shunned/killed/warned against, the temptations of Xenos, treason against the Emperor etc.
However, based on the original RT book and swathes of novels, the average imperial citizen knows little of Chaos. Drugs, blood/death cults, thirst for knowledge, that's how chaos gets its hand; cults might often not know what it is they're sacrificing to (except maybe Khorne, Khorne's not big on subtle). The Grey Knights have always been a secret Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors might have knowledge of them, to call upon their resources, but they're the most secretive of the branches of the Inquisition as it is. And remember, the Inquisition itself can be reduced to extremely complicated internicine factional infighting. Edit: What's more, what applies to the Ordo Calixis might not be the case for any other sector. This causes all sorts of issues. As subsequently noted, consistency has been removed from the dictionary of the authors of the game (though FFG do think about the RP potentials, so that's great).
It's like they (GW) were smoking crack when they read the Oscar Wilde quote on consistency.;) If the common man doesn't know what Chaos is, then what was the Horus Heresy? A civil war whereupon the favoured son of the Emperor of Mankind, Horus, almost brought the Imperium of Man to it's knees. While ultimately he failed, Horus managed to mortally wound the Emperor, something that freed him from the bonds of flesh so that he could ascend through the Golden Throne to become a God.
Alternately, GW waxes and wanes on how much people know about Chaos. Personally I'm old school on the subject, with people that touch upon the knowledge of Chaos being damned in the eyes of the Inquisition. Regiments that encounter Chaos are executed-a sentence that is commuted such that only through death will they be freed into the arms of the God-Emperor.
Or some such.;) What are Chaos Marine legions and Chaos Fleets, then? One threat amongst others to the Imperium of Man, but worse since they show that even the greatest among the servants of the Imperium can fall to treachery. You just have to ignore the tentacles and horns. What is the Emperor's disembodied mind battling against so that he needs a thousand psychics sacrificed to him a day, if not The Ruinous Powers?
There's a bit of circular reasoning there, but either way the Emperor is the 'source' (really the hose) for the Astronomicon, thus he projects the holy beacon so that the Imperium of Man can survive. He also protects the spirits of the faithful when they pass over (not that they have any knowledge of the Sea of Souls, the connection of psykers to the warp, etc.). Do Eccleisarchs on the pulpit not denounce the Ruinous Powers, and blame them for misfortune, on a regular basis because talking about them would be a mistake (if they even knew about the subject to start with in order to preach about it)? That would be the consistency issue again. It implies that Ordo Malleus rabidly oversees all Chaos-related matters, keeping them to itself; violently, if necessary.
The idea of jurisdiction has been somewhat spotty ever since Abnett and Thorpe started tinkering with the Inquisition, though to be fair they've done some really great things to the structure of that organisation. I've been reading Eisenhorn, though, and the novel seems to imply that Inquisitors of the various Ordos pursue whatever targets they want or come across, regardless of whether or not the Inquisitor is from Ordo Xenos and the pursuit is against heretics and Chaos Marines. The Ordo seems to represent their vocation.
It says that even inside the Inquisition, the Grey Knights are only a legend. Outside the Inquisition, they're unknown. Hyperbole is another word that you must become familiar with when dealing with the 40k universe.:) Daemon Hunter appears to rip out several parts of my limited understanding of the WH40K milieu. Wait until the next publication and everything will get better (from your interpretation).:D It sounds like there's some good information in there. I might have to get hold of a copy and see if I'm still burned out on the setting.:D.
I'm curious as to the relationship and interactions between the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights. Fatal error during installation kaspersky network agent 10. What do you do with Xenos who dabble heavily in the Warp? Xenos chaos worshippers? Do the Grey Knights second Marines to the Deathwatch? Do Watch Commanders exchange information and knowledge with the Grey Knights and their Fortress-Monastery on Titan?
Are Deathwatch marines exempt from the 'no knowledge of Chaos' thing? I'd imagine they would be, as the Grey Knights wouldn't be able to just mow down a Deathwatch Kill-Team, and the Deathwatch is an arm of the Ordos Xenos. I prefer to treat Chaos in 40K much like it's real world analog, satanism - the Ruinous Powers are known, named, and reviled by good Imperial cultists, with prayers and litanies ever praising the Emperor for his victories over the Warp.
I'm sure there are tons of stories of how the Emperor overcame Slaneesh in this one myth, how the Emperor overcame Khorne in battle the next, and so on. The Ruinous powers are also probably used as boogeymen to scare the populace to cleaving to the Imperial cult. Beyond that, it's all mythmaking and murky heresy, and excuses to burn people at the stake. A little short for my taste, and I'd've preferred more optional career ranks for non-clerics, but it's pretty good otherwise.
Re: Chaos knowledge The way I run it, people on the better connected worlds know there is a force called Chaos, that it is malign, that it produces demons, that there are heretics who worship it, etc. None of this is proscribed.
It's deep knowledge, especially of the procedures of Chaos or the specifics, that is problematic. The layman knows demons can be summoned if you murder someone with a magic ritual. It's another thing entirely to know that Bloodletters of Khorne can be summoned to the site of a murder by slitting the throat of a red-haired puppy with a bronze blade at midnight while reciting the last words the murder victim spoke but backwards.
That's the kind of thing that will get you Inquired into. Guardsmen may or may not learn much about their foes, but if they start to pick up stuff from long contact, they may be mind-wiped or killed for it unless they're absolutely trustworthy.
You don't want some guy coming back from the front knowing how to cast a death curse (or worse, thinking he knows how to correctly cast it.) because he paid attention to the layout of the room when they stormed the arch-heretic's inner sanctum. I know have a sudden image of the Grey Knights joining the Deathwatch and having to kill his compatriots at the end of each mission.
This makes them more awesome because they get that +5 bonus through each generation and. That's the writing of the 40k universe explained.:D I don't think that Marines ever had to be killed. Astartes are too valuable. I seem to recall even in the second edition days a story about how during the Armageddon thing when they banished Angorn, the head of the united Marines forces was PISSED at the inquisition and Knights for killing the Guard Forces involved. Like starting a grudge sort of pissed. The book says that Ordo Malleus has spent the last 10,000 years purging the Imperium of all knowledge of the Warp and Chaos.
(On top of that, they apparently wiped out 90% of all knowledge along the way.) This causes all sorts of issues. If the common man doesn't know what Chaos is, then what was the Horus Heresy? Is it common knowledge that Horus just decided to betray the Emperor for personal power? Or is the Horus Heresy not even known?
What are Chaos Marine legions and Chaos Fleets, then? What is the Emperor's disembodied mind battling against so that he needs a thousand psychics sacrificed to him a day, if not The Ruinous Powers? Or is that not even known?
Do Eccleisarchs on the pulpit not denounce the Ruinous Powers, and blame them for misfortune, on a regular basis because talking about them would be a mistake (if they even knew about the subject to start with in order to preach about it)? It implies that Ordo Malleus rabidly oversees all Chaos-related matters, keeping them to itself; violently, if necessary. I've been reading Eisenhorn, though, and the novel seems to imply that Inquisitors of the various Ordos pursue whatever targets they want or come across, regardless of whether or not the Inquisitor is from Ordo Xenos and the pursuit is against heretics and Chaos Marines. It says that even inside the Inquisition, the Grey Knights are only a legend. Outside the Inquisition, they're unknown.
The Grey Knights themselves are supposed to kill everyone they come across (except, I guess, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors) in order to maintain their secrecy. It's strongly implied that acolytes would be killed except in special circumstances, perhaps a nod to allowing the PCs to live through a run-in. The Dark Heresy main book makes no mention of anything like this and they're only described as the psychic space marine chapter serving Ordo Malleus. The various passages had made me think the Grey Knights were famous even among the Space Marines as a whole, but no, apparently not. Daemon Hunter appears to rip out several parts of my limited understanding of the WH40K milieu. What the average citizen knows about chaos and the warp has never really been made clear.
My own reading on it is that they know about chaos and daemons, but only in a vague, fairly undefined way. Take what your average Christian know about Satan and his minions. Now imagine that information is wrong. Most imperial citizens don't know that chaos can consume entire worlds, that daemons can be summoned, that the ruinous powers grant boons to those who swear allegiance to them.
They know that Horus swore allegiance to chaos and that followers of chaos are still out there (including the CSMs). What they don't know is that those forces have access to bizarre and terrifying powers. They know nothing of sorcery, or if they do then it is poorly understood and mostly inaccurate knowledge. As for the emperor eating thousands of psykers every day, no I don't think the average citizen knows anything about that. The Logan Grimnir feud with the inquisition/administratum after the first Armageddon war was more like him being uber pissed they basically locked everyone on the planet who survived the war except for the Space Wolves, the planetary govenor and some of the highest ranking nobles in concentration camps and left them to die while they bussed in new workers from all over the sector so they didnt have to shut down the factories. This included all the imperial gaurd and planetary defence force regiments that had just helped the Space Wolves win the war.
Depending on which version of the story you read it ranged from 'was very angry but let it go at bearing a hefty grudge' to 'Im so pissed I threatened to go to war with the Inquisition and only got talked down at the last minute'. I prefer to treat Chaos in 40K much like it's real world analog, satanism - the Ruinous Powers are known, named, and reviled by good Imperial cultists, with prayers and litanies ever praising the Emperor for his victories over the Warp. I'm sure there are tons of stories of how the Emperor overcame Slaneesh in this one myth, how the Emperor overcame Khorne in battle the next, and so on. The Ruinous powers are also probably used as boogeymen to scare the populace to cleaving to the Imperial cult. Beyond that, it's all mythmaking and murky heresy, and excuses to burn people at the stake. The way I run it, people on the better connected worlds know there is a force called Chaos, that it is malign, that it produces demons, that there are heretics who worship it, etc. None of this is proscribed.
It's deep knowledge, especially of the procedures of Chaos or the specifics, that is problematic. The layman knows demons can be summoned if you murder someone with a magic ritual. It's another thing entirely to know that Bloodletters of Khorne can be summoned to the site of a murder by slitting the throat of a red-haired puppy with a bronze blade at midnight while reciting the last words the murder victim spoke but backwards. That's the kind of thing that will get you Inquired into. What the average citizen knows about chaos and the warp has never really been made clear. My own reading on it is that they know about chaos and daemons, but only in a vague, fairly undefined way. Take what your average Christian know about Satan and his minions.
Now imagine that information is wrong. Most imperial citizens don't know that chaos can consume entire worlds, that daemons can be summoned, that the ruinous powers grant boons to those who swear allegiance to them.
They know that Horus swore allegiance to chaos and that followers of chaos are still out there (including the CSMs). What they don't know is that those forces have access to bizarre and terrifying powers. They know nothing of sorcery, or if they do then it is poorly understood and mostly inaccurate knowledge.These things are what was conveyed to me by the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook.
I'm too new to WH40K to have views set in stone, but at the moment, I'm thinking: I would have it that Clerics constantly preach that the inner voice that speaks of desires to rise above one's station (hubris) and to covet what belongs to another (jealousy) are daemonic whispers, are to be warred against and confessed lest the Ruinous Powers find a foothold in their souls. Repeated sinful thoughts, especially unconfessed, will lead to damnation. The Emperor saved mankind from the Ruinous Powers during the Horus Heresy, and forever immortal upon the Golden Throne, he will continue to defend the Imperium, and he expects his subjects to resist the forces of evil, as well. Also, there is widespread knowledge on developed worlds (feral worlds and similar, not so much) that unsanctioned psychics are known to develop into gateways for daemonic forces, which is why they are so universally feared and hated, regardless of their origins. Even treasured children, once discovered as nascent psychics, are immediately turned-in for Black Ships collection.
People need a deep-seated reason to fear. The way I currently view the Grey Knights is that they are probably going to kill just about everything but obvious allies fighting at their sides at the site of a demonic incursion. Afterward, they check everyone for corruption, including Inquisitors, and dispose of anyone who doesn't pass.
Then they mind-wipe all non-Inquisitor-level individuals afterward, and anyone else as specified by the commanding Inquisitor, 'For their own safety.' This is done only to remove knowledge of personal daemonic contact. By fiat, I'm handing them unwritten psychic powers that allow that. The Grey Knights aren't going to kill or mind-wipe everyone who learns about them as per Daemon Hunter, p. 136, 'The Grey Knights rarely leave witnesses. Entire platoons of Guardsmen may be given the final benediction to prevent word of the Grey Knights existence from spreading.' It's far too easy for Chaos forces and heretical groups in league with Chaos to spread information about the Grey Knight's to make such a practice realistic or useful.
If the Grey Knights could have obtained any advantage through secrecy, then in 10,000 years, something within Chaos would have taken steps to eliminate it given how easy and relatively inexpensive the task would be. Example: Some Chaos servants start widespread dissemination of information about the Grey Knights across an important high-population planet. The Grey Knights exterminate the planet to maintain their secrecy.
Chaos has just discovered how to destroy the core of Imperium on the cheap. I just can't see it working this way. The Grey Knights (and the Deathwatch) are listed as Adeptus Astartes chapters under the Inquisition. That's about all most people know.
Both forces could care less. As for the emperor eating thousands of psykers every day, no I don't think the average citizen knows anything about that.Yet it is repeatedly mentioned throughout the fluff text of multiple books, making it seem like it is common knowledge. Yet it is repeatedly mentioned throughout the fluff text of multiple books, making it seem like it is common knowledge. There are many games that repeat important setting secrets frequently, with them being in-character knowledge only known to a few individuals. As discussed above, detailed knowledge of Chaos in any Warhammer game is a good example. Similarly, almost all the information about anything in Exalted is known to something like 1% of Creation's population, tops, and that frequently does not include PCs. I find assuming the setting in the books is not known by characters unless specifically stated or allowed by the GM is more frequently the right approach than its opposite.
My take on the knowledge of chaos issue: (This like all Prince40k is based on interpolating from bits I like a throwing away bits I don't, WARNING: I have female space marines). The inquisition's policy, as always, varies from inquisitor to inquisitor but the general trend depends on the segmentum and sector where they work. In the imperial heartlands of Segmentum Solar chaos is rare, and knowledge of its mere existance is a reasonable threat. Here general policy is to cleanse and purify with extreme prejudice. NOTE: this is where the grey knights are based, and so their actions will generaly be based on this policy as well.
In the depths of Segmentum Obscuros, like near the Cadian Gate or in the ill-fated Calixis Sector, this would quickly lead to a significant weakening of imperial forces(essentialy handing worlds to chaos in the end). If you can see the eye of Terror with only the most primative optical aids, trying to deny the existance of the ruinous powers is more dangerous than allowing small amounts of controled information out to the nessisary parties (imperial guard command structure, senior adepta, etc). As for inquisitorial jurisdiction: That is hard to enforce in practise, and an inquisitor has to investigate the heresy he finds rather than the heresy he's looking for.
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Most recently, we had 's post about the Dornian!Ultramarines and What some people don't realise, especially if they are quite new to the hobby and/or fanfiction, is that these were part of a group effort and a semi-professional online Index Astartes was created for the new setting, included various commissioned artworks from DeviantArt. The first eight Index Astartes articles were published as a.pdf in Spring 2010.
Unfortunately, as of 2014 volume II was unfinished and stalled, although the completed and WIP alternate Index Astartes threads are still online, sadly without artwork. If they did finish it, I can't find it. contains The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal and Indexes Astartes for the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Raven Guard, Word Bearers, Ultramarines, White Scars, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, and Blood Angels. The Death Guard, Sons of Horus, and Imperial Fists were sadly still to be tackled when the project ran out of steam, although we do know some basic outline from the.pdf. The Imperial Fists, led by Sigismund, became the Black Legion. Ezekyle Abaddon, disgusted by Horus's failure to protect the Emperor, severed his Legion's connection to their primarch and so the Sons of Horus became the Black Templars.
It was Abaddon, First High Lord of Terra, who led the Scouring as the Traitor Legions were driven into the Eye. About the alt-DG we heard nothing - just like in real 40k!
The Dornian Heresy project was wrapping up just as I joined the B&C, and even if I'd been there earlier, only the most experienced fanfic writers actually did the writeups, although IIRC the ideas were a communal effort. I mention this A: so you don't think I'm taking credit and B: because it was this which got me interested in homegrown Index Astartes articles and 40k fanfiction generally. Personally, I think it loses a lot of the flavor of the setting. With only seven real chaos legions against nine loyalist legions in the modern setting there's less of a feeling of menace from the forces of Chaos. This is compounded by the fact not all of the loyalist primarchs were lost in the intervening time. Magnus is distant and occupied with his personal quest to revive the Emperor, but If the forces of Chaos are ever on the verge of kicking down the Chadian Gate in this universe they don't even need Eldar miracles to bring along a primarch to save the day.
EDIT: Alongside that, there's the fact the Salamanders fell to Malal, which means that in total there's about Six chaos legions who will actually work to destroy the Imperium. Sarah Cawkwell started as fanfic and BL hired her. Though she only did one book and was an administrator for the Bolthole, which became the defacto forums after BL got rid of their own forums. I feel like there was a contest as well, but I'm probably wrong on that one. Too bad GW killed the forums after Saville got butthurt and started bitching at fans for questions. And people started wondering about canon.
I enjoyed The Shape of The Nightmare to Come. It was a good read. The 60k follow up kind of jumped the shark though.
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